🔥 on the Web, specifically

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a lot of web criticism doesn't work for me because i feel it doesn't get exactly how inextricable the web reveal is from the larger plot. people frequently go for the 'annabelle was lying in 147 weaver, it's all in jon's head' interpretation of events and i reallyyy don't like that because you know i post about a guest for mr spider every few days and the way jon would've been an entirely different character without it, that is to say, people simplify the web reveal too much. it's not meant to take away jon's culpability in all the atrocities (is that too strong of a word lol) he was a part of, it just gives it context. and that context is trauma. the web reveal is a lot less about "the web pulled him around by puppet strings" and more about the specific way a guest for mr spider changes him. so what i said in here, like, functionally mag 81 is not any different from any of the other avatar statements where someone has a traumatic entity related encounter in childhood which changes their entire life trajectory (think, 91 with mike crew and the lichtenberg figure where the trauma leads to him seeking out other entities as a way of escape and 82 where the way daisy gets hurt because she hesitated, because she wasn't strong enough is part of the reason she chose the hunt, the daisy scar detail exists because it is a reminder of that memory of calvin). so jon saw someone disappear behind a door and spent the rest of his life opening doors (at a hundred thresholds), this is what the mother wanted from him, yes, but the way it's done is clearly a lot more nuanced than everyone gives it credit for and allows jon to have some level of personal agency. their web reveal conceit was a, "all roads lead to this clearing" type of thing. he was always going to be eaten by the spider, his fate was decided in the cosmic sense but he was ~free~ to make any number of choices in between, on a personal level. the web being the master entity is also something that they gave a reasonable amount of thought to because avatar powers are also likened to an addiction, and substance abuse has a lot to do with surrender of autonomy to the maintenance of that addiction, it just makes sense that the entity that deals in that particular type of exploitation would exercise a level of influence on the avatars of all other fears (i don't feel the addiction metaphor is a definitive reading of avatarhood, but it's something they clearly intended and is a lot less flimsy than the capitalism one to me so). now, you don't have to like this, i don't think i like much of it either (especially that chekhov's lighter because that's such an uninteresting, transparent form of control that just straight up messes with his head. destroy that thang) but i also feel without the web it just wouldn't be the same podcast. however i still think they should've gone for the ending i speculated about here the other day, because that felt like a foolproof way to supplant the web as the master entity since the very idea of extinction exists to starve the entities and the fears are already so much about hunger, jon's most transformative childhood memory is about a devouring and the fear of being consumed will shadow him the for the rest of his life, and i would've found it a lot more cathartic if at the end of it all, the only way for jon to escape mr spider was to assume his role.

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@theatredelabsurde replying to your tags on both posts under this. so i agree with what you're saying here, there's a follow up to the finale ask where i talk about some of the ways they made the web 'special' doesn't sit well with the fears worldbuilding and i'm with you on the sentience reveal: https://www.tumblr.com/magnuspanoptes/780444481096941568/finale-anon-popping-back-in-to-say-that-your?source=share and about the authorial intent thing. i wasn't aware he said that, i stopped listening to Q&A's at a point and his mind also worked in really mysterious ways ("i wasn't really thinking of depression when i came up with the lonely" // "i don't get the eliasfuckers. it's not like i wrote him as the enigmatic, charismatic, gothic villain. and we all know nobody has ever wanted to fuck the gothic villain never happened in the entire history of the genre" etc) so. about the "no good choice" bit well they've never actually taken a solid moral stance in favour of utilitariansim in the podcast, see gertrude. i think gertrude was right to kill all those twinks but that was clearly not the intended message, the framing was that of a sympathetic character in an impossible situation forced to make impossible but not 'correct' choices and that's how the supporting cast (and jon) is being portrayed in 199-200. like i cannot believe it was accidental, elias's last words to jon are "good luck", the last words spoken in the podcast are "good luck". there's a clear mirroring happening here between both choices which is giving them the same moral weight, not that they are admirable choices to make, not that jon's was worse and more selfish than theirs. i don't really have a problem with both choices being given equal weight, even though i favour jon here. and even if all this was accidental, i only care about what's there in the text. to me, this is a thematically cogent ending (terribly executed. like i said i hate it)

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the reason it's not clicking for the rest of the fandom (speaking of 2020 discourse again, i don't know what they're posting about now. i've got the tags blocked) is because of that jonmartin focused ending. jon doing his own thing means he willingly "ruined his chance at a happy ending" with martin, should've just listened to the girls etc (and people in general do not understand and do not gaf about jon so)

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Doorways have always been a equal source of both reassurance and dread to me.

the thing about archivist sasha is that. you gotta write jon out of existence for it to work. the web marked him specifically because it singled him out as the agent that would help fulfill its designs and jonah's primary reason for picking jon was also that he came pre-marked by the most dangerous, bothersome entity. bootstrap paradox type plot point. ergo in a universe where he isn't archivist, mr spider never happened, but mr spider is a defining character backstory moment for him. he would've never joined the magnus institute if he hadn't had that traumatic episode. so. to conceive an archivist sasha au a) you have to give sasha her own version of a guest for mr spider; b) jon isn't marked by the web and is a completely different person because of it and doesn't work at the institute. otherwise, to explain his presence there you have to give him a traumatic episode with some other entity (like tim and the stranger)

now you can just say wow what the hell this is fanfiction you can do whatever you want forever. thats true ✌️ unfortunately i have the overthinker's curse and cannot overlook this. also jon and elias's fates are entwined in every universe amen

might I ask. what are the things you see about jon from the fans that annoy you the most. I love your tma opinions and i wanna this if I'm not alone in the ones I'm thinking about

well almost everything i say in my jon tag is in response to popular takes of his character but it has to be the way he's widely engaged with as an oblivious funnyman protagonist who makes a series of looney tunes-esque choices over the course of the podcast and while that makes for a good joke post now and then it's unbearable to me because the thing that people choose to make fun of is his pathological need to know, which is a trauma response (which. i think the podcast is a bit influenced by controversial texts like 'the body keeps the score' in the way it writes about trauma through avatars and jon's marks are absolutely doing this—the effects of trauma being literally imprinted on his body as the archive. but it's fantasy and not realism so it doesn't bother me).

but as i was saying. jon's traumatised as a child in a very specific manner—through a book, through the act of reading (as you'll see, it's what elias hires him for as the archivist) and crucially he does not get to finish reading a guest for mr spider, he isn't able to knock and open that door. and doors in this podcast are all about boundaries in the gothic mode: the fear of physical violation (of the body, of the self) because beyond that closed door there is a terrible, numinous force and if you open the door, it will enter your world and alter you—unity with some monstrous other—which is how avatarhood is initially conceived of as gothic terror but later it's also about sublime transcendence in the romantic sense—unity with something divine—it's why there are a lot of statements about avatars falling in love with their parasitic patrons (this too is jonelias) so that's his formative traumatic experience and the cornerstone of his characterisation, that he couldn't finish reading the book, couldn't open that door and someone else was taken in his stead. this will transform into a lifelong need to Know, when he goes to the magnus institute he'll keep reading statement after statement and open every single door elias nudges him towards and encounter every fear entity as he's both repulsed and transfixed by all that horror (at a hundred thresholds you pressed on!) in order to get to the bottom of it all so someone else is never taken in his stead ("a strange conviction that. if i had been able to face that thing myself, maybe i could have saved him") it's why he's such a good pick for archivist, this is exactly the kind of person elias and the web (which traumatised him in in this manner to begin with) need for their ritual. this is terrific writing to me personally and why i shrivel up and die whenever people trivialise it or worse. identify it as a character flaw.

there's also another thing, that i can't properly discuss because it would require a level of rigour i'm not capable of right now—i have no problems with anyone's race or sexuality or any other headcanons neither do i think all headcanons need to align with themes all the time like it's not real. we're all playing with our toys here. but this is a horror podcast that has overt political themes which you can't really headcanon your way out of because the popular indian hc that people have for jon doesn't quite work with what jonny sims has written. like if we're strictly engaging in textual analysis only, aside from the fact that jonny sims is an affluent white author who's writing from that perspective so the podcast will immediately let you know if a character is non white (often he's racist about it. the tom haan plot, among others) jon, to me, was very much implied as being middle class white for a simple reason: the way the magnus institute and the eye manifests in the story is tied to jonah magnus performing the watcher's crown during britain's imperial century. it's conceived as a metaphor for imperial control (and he calls himself king of a ruined world), specifically the way the control of an empire hinges on its monopoly over knowledge. the 19th century was a time of obsessive knowledge gathering as a way to better govern and exploit and expand their territories—the maps, the surveys, the censuses, the state sponsored knowledge gathering expeditions into the colonies, into the polar regions because knowledge is a tool of power and is used to construct systems of control. robert smirke and jon and elias and gertrude all acquire it through hegemonic exploitation which then reinforces that hegemony (of the eye, of the institute), that work of obsessive codification and classification in order to conquer the entities in the process of which jonah destroys so many lives to come out on top (and his apocalyptic vision of the world is a panopticon—knowledge as a mode of surveillance and discipline and then punishment), is a role that jon directly inherits as early as S1 when he isn't even an avatar yet but his job is to extract narratives of trauma from people through dispassionate office protocol. like he's not just exploited he's also written to be someone with a certain amount of hegemonic privilege that repeatedly shields him from a worse fate (S4 is blatant about it, screamed when jon started going on about hey melanie maybe i can change it from the INSIDE) and while this one's not annoying per se and i'm not saying the podcast about eldritch fear gods is only an allegory for this, it's not. it's a podcast about eldritch fear gods first (and i think their political commentary is significantly weaker than vampirism/avatarhood as a metaphor for trauma), i've just never seen anyone discuss this. probably because it's a good way to get mauled

May I ask for a 🔥 for either Jon specifically or TMA generally? Whichever you prefer :)

he gets infantalised a lot, like, he was out there causing real harm right in s1 because he was an ass to traumatised statement givers, which people don't give a lot of thought to because statement givers don't register as 'real people' to most listeners so his scepticism is always played for laughs. and i don't think jon has low empathy. i try to avoid pathologising characters because that enters headcanon territory very quickly and i'm not great with those, so i just prefer textual analysis. i've talked about this before, he perfectly knew what he was doing, he knew they were all true stories, and the reason he was reluctant to acknowledge their truth is because it would've required vulnerability on his part, i.e. feeding beholding his own fear. he says it outright in MAG 39 - "Because I’m scared, Martin! Because when I record these statements it feels… it feels like I’m being watched [...] The scepticism, feigning ignorance. It just felt safer."—and this is basically the bureaucratic version of what he will do later as an avatar, feed on someone else so your god doesn't feed on you. that bit of s1 characterisation is important to me because then you can't handwave his s4 feeding choices as simply physiological urges he has no control over, he has always been like this (which is a very human response, i don't find this contemptible. it's good writing). the other thing about jon is that people engage with him as a guy who 'lost all his friends' because of the monstrosity downward spiral, but that's not true either. he's clearly meant to be a guy who was out there gleefully burning bridges in seasons one and two and that attitude of his is the primary reason nobody wants to associate with him when he starts displaying his weird guy powers. the weird guy powers are bad enough but on top of that he did not endear himself to anyone (see, tim and melanie) with his previous behaviour so when he actually decides to do bit of a heel turn in s3 by seeking human connections, that comes back to bite him. which is, again, good writing and why i think jon is a very compelling case of the 'asshole smart guy' archetype, because there are. consequences.

Hello! I'm relistening to tma and absolutely loving your blog, your posts, observations and audio edits (Me and the devil gave me goosebumps, I'm not kidding. It's perfect). I was wondering what you thought about the finale? You probably talked about it and I simply haven't reached that particular post yet, but I'm wondering if you consider it to be thematically fitting or not

I didn't actually listen to the last season beyon the first couple of episodes. I was busy by then and never got around to it. But I've read the summary and I've seen that in the end they had two choices: Jon becomes the Eye and keeps watch as the world extinguishes around him, taking his friends and, hopefully, the fears with it, or they open a door to another world (killing Jon in the process although I'm not sure why or how, but I trust they must) and drag the fears there, freeing their world and surviving but dooming unseen others. I'd have loved if what took place was the first choice, and I think it would have been thematically fitting, except it would have almost been a good ending, no? The fears (probably) defeated, even though the price is everyone's life. But the second is also very fitting with just, humanity, and the actions of the characters up until that point (the woman in the cave begging the buried to "take her not me, take her not me") the actions of Johna, the need to survive. So I was curious about your thoughts

Apologies for the lenght

thank you 💜 i'm always very happy to hear people like the edits

about the finale, they had this trolley problem-esque scenario where they could either let jon ascend to godhood and speed up the end of the world which would starve all the fears, or take annabelle cane's bargain of reversing the apocalypse by releasing the fears into infinite universes. jon didn't need to die for the second option to work, they were just told to kill jonah and burn down the institute. it's difficult to talk about the thematic relevance of either choice without further context, so i'm going to bring up some s5 plot details. the big one being that the web had orchestrated the events leading up to the apocalypse (they had this planned since MAG 1, it's very obvious on a re-listen), it was in their interest for the eye's ritual to occur, and the eye's ritual is jon, so it was in their interest to have jon marked. they directly interfere with almost all of his s4 marks while elias is in prison. but the broader implication of this was that the web was revealed to be The Narrative. the tapes belonged to them and the tapes are the frame device of the podcast. i think on paper this is a very clever bit of metatexutal story choice, especially since they were aiming for a tragedy, and this has that precise sense of tragic inevitability to it, that this was always going to happen, because they were never going to escape the trappings of the narrative.

so what happens in the finale is that everyone agrees to go with annabelle's offer, except for jon (well he agrees to it and then runs off to do his own thing) he climbs the panopticon in MAG 200 with the intent to kill jonah and replace him as the pupil of the eye, he successfully achieves the first bit and then martin walks in to reveal he told the others to go ahead with their plan before time so jon's prevented from crawling into the eye. they end up releasing the fears. i don't think this is thematically incoherent, part of their thesis was that there's nothing more human than making the decision to doom someone else—hundreds of people, an entire world—for personal salvation. it's why plenty of people chose to become avatars. it's what jonah did. it's what he hear from a lot of statement-givers, lost john's cave is that, yeah, but also MAG 29 cheating death. they didn't fix anything, they just passed it over. so it's an appropriately cynical ending (not entirely. the last words are, "good luck", that was another bit of thesis. that the stacks are against you but you have to Try). so on paper this works. i personally hated it lol because i think 1) the web multiverse reveal comes too late. like way too late. like literally three episodes before the finale. 2) it's comically rushed. one minute jon's telling him, "sorry i have to do this." (and this is while martin's audibly tearing up and having a little breakdown. jon's not even slightly moved by this) but two minutes later it's, "i love you martin cut the tether <3" it's just not effective. 3) the emotional thrust of the finale largely hinged on whether or not you cared about jonmartin and brother (gn) i did not. and 4) the horror of it happens out of sight. we're told those countless universes they doomed are Real but it's just presented as a statistic to us, they're not narratively real the same way their world is, and i can't be horrified by a statistic. and finally 5) i'm a very jon-centric guy in my reading of the podcast, i enjoy the thematic implications of the first choice a lot more because of what they would mean for his character.

navigation -

  • bluebeard tag: #kept under lock and key
  • doubling tag: #surely he's the same
  • jon gothic tag: #gothic hero(ine) jon sims
  • jonah gothic tag: #c(o)unt magnus
  • avatarhood tag: #a man's eating habits
  • mag 1 anglerfish. god he's so annoying. started shaming the dead woman unprompted less than five minutes in. king.

    ep200 should have been "statement of jonah magnus, on fear. statement ripped from subject, right before his death"

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